Shanita Akintonde:
Greetings and welcome to a special edition, or should I say another special edition, of Marketing Insights. I'm Shanita Akintonde, professor, author, career coach, and marketing shero. And I am uber excited to have with me today a very special guest. You're going to hear more about her momentarily. But before we get into our special guest and our topic, I do want to share a couple of things with you, dear listeners.
First off, as you have heard me say probably ad nauseam, this is the eighth season of Marketing Insights. And I bring that up to say that today's episode is inching us closer to episode number 60. That means we've been doing this a long time and we've been doing it very well. This season in particular, after having a conversation with McGraw Hill's very own Michelle Sweeden, giving you a shout-out, Michelle, I was asked to give interviews in a little different cadence than I've done in the past.
And I must say to you all that having experts like our very special guest today really warms my heart in the sense that it gives you and me an opportunity to learn from those who are still in the trenches, getting the work done, and are willing to share their nuggets with us so that we can grow and evolve to be even stronger marketers ourselves. With that being said, our special guest today is Elizabeth "Liz" Brohan.
She and I go way back, and now she is on this podcast with us. I must also tell y'all listeners that I was on her podcast recently, which I hope she gives a little shout-out to as well and tell us the title and all that it does. But today we're focusing on Marketing Insights. We're going to look at a often overturned or sometimes overlooked aspect of marketing, which is business to business, aka B2B, and Liz is a B2B marketing maven.
She has started her work in the agency field, FCB. If any of you are familiar with that little place called Foote, Cone & Belding. She's evolved to be a co-CEO. She's also doing her thing now, as I mentioned a moment ago, as a podcast host. Just a whole bunch of insights. But before we delve into the topic, which today is going to be on the importance of storytelling in B2B spaces, particularly with the AI umbrella, I'm going to ask Liz to tell us a little bit about herself. But Liz, ha! We're giving you a shout-out first.
Elizabeth Brohan:
So great to see you again. I'm always excited. I always try to match your energy because it's always...
Shanita Akintonde:
Bring it. Yes!
Elizabeth Brohan:
Yes. Absolutely. I always try to bring it. I don't know that anybody can really match it though. So thank you for having me on this program and this podcast. We marketers, we just love to talk about what we do, how we do it, what we think it's going to go in the future. So great. We will get into it today in a big way. I did not necessarily start my career in B2B marketing, but certainly got into it in a big, healthy way. As Shanita told you, I was a co-CEO of what back then was CBD Marketing and we were one of the premier B2B marketing communications firms in the country.
Eventually I ended up running it on my own. And so I would say that I had that agency for 25 plus years. And as we evolved, we evolved strongly into B2B marketing. Many, many sectors, as you might guess. We were in the building product sector, financial services, manufacturing, technology and software. You name it. We didn't necessarily specialize in one industry because we could take our knowledge and apply it across the board.
Shanita Akintonde:
Yeah. That's so important to be able to do that. And I'm glad you made that statement, Liz, because what I tell... I call our listeners Marketing Maestros. What I tell the Marketing Maestros is that having applicable skills that you're able to use to navigate different spaces is really important. And that's partly what we try to do with every episode of this Marketing Insights Podcast series is to give them some tools or some ways of thinking that they may not have foreseen or had an opportunity to understand that may be applicable in those spaces.
Speaking of spaces and things that you've done, you have a stellar background, young lady, and you have seen I'll call it the evolving of the marketing space. It's still evolving, which we're going to get into today. But what do you think is one of the biggest misperceptions that people may have about B2B storytelling?
Elizabeth Brohan:
I think the misconception about B2B has always been that it's boring. It's actually been called B2B boring. And I think we'll get loss along the way, but is really seeing, I think, a sound revival is that we're talking to humans. Everybody who's buying our product, even if they're in a corporate situation, they are a human being and they like stories and they like humor and they like clever. So we want to make sure that some of that's getting put back into B2B marketing so that it can be more relevant and resonate with the target audiences we're trying to reach.
Shanita Akintonde:
Yes, very important. And let me also ask you, because speaking of human and human-centered, one of the things that can often be misconstrued as well is the idea of humanity or humane actions that we take in marketing, which may seem counterintuitive. So how do you deal with those who may say, "Oh, storytelling and marketing, especially B2B is a nice to have, but what's really the ROI on that? We don't understand the efficiency or the reason for it to build into our effectiveness in what we do?"
Elizabeth Brohan:
Oh, man, you just nailed it, right? So there's no doubt about it. A lot of B2B companies out there just believe that marketing should be price promotion driven. Now, that really can't be the way you go to market any longer because the customer is now driving exactly what they need. They are putting in very detailed, very high level prompts into any of their AI tools because they need immediate solutions. And those solutions aren't necessarily going to be price promotion driven.
Price can often not even be on the radar screen today because most of these individuals are trying to solve for very difficult problems or pain points that are in the supply chain that are holding up their facility or holding up their manufacturing. So there's a lot to take into context here, and we know that individuals aren't always going to be driven by the things we thought they were most interested in in the past.
Shanita Akintonde:
Right. Oh, yes, because I used to use this term in my classes, I use it now with clients, and it's not something I coined, it's just something that resonates with me, and that's the price value correlation. That's the question that we as marketers often have to ask, what is the price value correlation? And what you're speaking to, Liz, sounds like what you've observed, and I have too, is that consumers are not always focused solely on the price.
They want to know what is the value, whether it's intrinsically built into the brand or something that they can see, feel, and touch literally. And so when you look at it from a storytelling perspective, what it sounds like you're saying is that that is one of the ways to suss up what those touchpoints may be very specifically and put them out front. And that's something that you can't always do with the old way of doing things, that old model of just check these boxes and that'll be it.
Elizabeth Brohan:
Right, right. What we really need to do is we need to solve for pain points. And until we understand what those pain points are by doing our research and looking at all of the tools that are at our disposal as marketers, you can definitely turn to customer service. Take a look at the reviews that are coming in, what are they saying about their needs. Look at what that customer experience feedback is. Definitely go talk to the sales team.
You really need to get out of your chair and head over there and talk to them about what are the conversations that they're having because they're on the frontline, they're in the trenches, they'll be able to tell you. And then also there's other data. Even IT will have data that you can utilize to try and understand what are those human moments that are being discussed and need to be solved for, that marketers can tell the stories and base it around the solutions that your company has.
Could be timing, could be, "I need this widget tomorrow," and they're at wit's end to be able to get it. So it's really understanding what the customer needs are and making sure that we're there answering their prompts and telling them the stories that will make them feel as though you've got their back.
Shanita Akintonde:
Yes, you've got their back. And speaking of having someone's back, I mean, what about this idea that people feel that AI in some ways is stabbing them in the back? And I'm using that very graphic phrase, but that they're going to be replaced or that things like telling stories can now be automated. So what are some things that you observe in your history of storytelling, yourself as a storyteller, I'm a fellow storyteller, as you know, we're both in that space, what are some ways in which a human has the ability to tell a story in ways that AI will never be able to replace, do you think?
Elizabeth Brohan:
Yeah, I'm actually a fan of AI. I do think it helps to make our jobs a little easier. But does that mean that it's making it better or that the quality of our work is better? No. I think that's where we really need to be specifically careful. No doubt about it, AI can do the draft, but the human has to do the drive. That's really the crux of all of it. And once you put in a great prompt that actually includes some of the research that you've done, includes some of the pain points that you've seen and you know exactly what you need to solve for, it will generate a very good first draft.
After that, it's up to us because there has to be feeling in our communications. And you want to make sure that that voice is authentic to the brand and really has some emotional capacity to it so that it's not left just to AI to say, 'Okay, so now you're probably ready to buy this product, right?"
Shanita Akintonde:
Yes.
Elizabeth Brohan:
So yeah, it's a great tool, it can be a great friend, but it's a friend that actually needs to be put on a very short leash if I'm making a course.
Shanita Akintonde:
So it's a tool is what I'm hearing you say. And I am too a fan of it. I think that it has to be used or seen as a resource, as something that can be a helpmate, not the entire helper. You can't just let it loose and let it do its thing. But as you pointed out, with the right prompts. There's a friend of mine, and I may have him join the podcast as well, who is all about how you craft the best prompts to put into spaces like ChatGPT or whatever other form of AI you're using, because it really is a science behind that.
It's an art and a science behind that dance and how you make that work for you. And that's something people are still learning how to do. I myself am still learning how to do it. But going back to your point about authenticity, how would you say you can utilize the idea of storytelling, AI generated tools and still keep that authenticity there? You've touched on it some by saying the prompts and guiding it. Is there anything else that you would lean into in terms of how you remain or keep that authenticity behind the storytelling aspect of what we do in branding?
Elizabeth Brohan:
Yeah, marketers spend a great deal of time crafting a brand's tone. And it's important to actually have guidelines so that you understand the tone, because the tone is really going to be driven by what your customers are looking for, what their experience has been. It's everything that's in their mind and their heart and then finally their wallet that is going to get them to act. So you need to take all of that and look very carefully at how you're presenting the information that you think is going to be most relevant to them. So utilize the brand tools that you probably built to make your work better.
Shanita Akintonde:
Yes. Oh, this is why I love you, Liz, because I could spend a whole year, if not longer, talking about brand tone and how much goes into that. Some people spend a lot of time, or no, they don't spend enough time, in my opinion, on creating personas of who their users are and what tone then would be applicable to them to make them feel connected to the brand. And people just skip over those things.
And I'm like, are you kidding me? You can't. That's like a fundamental... Well, that's why we're in business. That's why they need people like us, Liz. So now you've developed frameworks. Correct me if I'm wrong. I want to look at my notes here for a second. Friend-to-friend marketing, is that correct? Market what's meaningful and others. How do those philosophies show up for you in effective storytelling?
Elizabeth Brohan:
Well, friend-to-friend marketing, the genesis of all of that was really to think more human and to actually act more human. If you treat your customer as a friend, there are certain things that your friends are always going to be loving about you. They love it when you compliment them. They love it when maybe you send them a special gift. They love it when you recognize their birthday or recognize an achievement.
If you just think about all the things a dear friend would want from you, it's easy to bake that into your marketing to make this a very human and emotional conversation and not me just pushing information out at you. So that's certainly a piece of the puzzle that I think helps all of us maintain that more human customer-centric point of view.
Shanita Akintonde:
Yes. Going back to your point about the friend-to-friend, having a conversation is the tone that we want to have. We don't want to sound like we're talking down to anybody or talking at them, that there's a disconnection. It has to feel like you're sitting next to them or in a space where it's intimate enough where we're having a dialogue or having a chat. It's not a forced situation. So I really appreciate that.
Do you have any examples either from your clients or from you personally that you think stand out, or it may not even be your own clients, just a brand that comes to mind that may be really good at that idea of having a conversation, if you will, with their consumers because of the way they approach their marketing or the way they approach what they put out in the world?
Elizabeth Brohan:
There's a couple of really great examples that I can talk about, and I won't name names, but I may...
Shanita Akintonde:
But I do on here, but okay, I understand.
Elizabeth Brohan:
Okay. All right. Well, I'm complimenting them, so I'm sure that they wouldn't mind, but just...
Shanita Akintonde:
You're right.
Elizabeth Brohan:
I'm going to talk about one brand that's in the appliance industry. And when we started working with them, what they wanted to do was they wanted to sell into contractors and builders. They wanted those individuals to sign contracts that they would use all of those appliances in their homes. They weren't exactly going about it in the right way. There was actually no place, no online community where they could share information, talk about trends, talk about what the future was going to be like because, of course, the smart home was coming into everybody's purview.
So what we did was we built an online community. We were the first ones to do it. And we just made sure that we were listening and not just responding with, "Here's a great product that might solve your problems," but more like, "Here are the trends your customers may be asking for soon." And so those were the sorts of conversations that really were a game changer because now you'll see that everyone in the industry is doing this. The competition caught on and the competition started to parody that success. So that was one really great example.
Shanita Akintonde:
That's awesome. Yeah, keep going.
Elizabeth Brohan:
Yeah. Another great example is in the building products category. There was a manufacturer and they manufactured siding that went on your home, but it was a very special kind of siding. And of course, it was much more expensive, or I shouldn't say much more, but it was a premium brand. So their contractors always wanted to sell the cheapest option. They didn't want to sell this higher end, more durable siding or cladding.
They just wanted the quick sale and they would pretty much sell vinyl. So what we did is we started a program called the Ambassador Club where we went... It was a push-pull strategy. We went door to door in neighborhoods where there had been storm damage or where at least one family on the block had put in this better premium siding. And then we started gathering leads at the street level. Very innovative.
We put together an app that could collect all this data on homes and the customer conversations we were having at the front door. Then what we did was we took these leads directly to our contractors and we said, "We're going to give you these leads. These are high quality leads. But guess what? You are no longer allowed to sell vinyl at these meetings. If you do, you're going to lose these high quality leads."
So we were able to turn the tables on the entire industry and start to gain a real threshold and foothold for this premium brand siding. So it was such an exciting program and it truly worked. And again, after a few years, we started to see the competition try to parody this program, but not all of them were successful because the groundwork was very intricately built.
Shanita Akintonde:
Yes. And they couldn't just parody it because some things, yeah, you can't just copy. People think you can, but there are other things that go into it, other ingredients into that sweet potato pie.
Elizabeth Brohan:
Those were two great examples of listening to your customers, going out on the street and talking to them, and then making the conversation much more human.
Shanita Akintonde:
Much more human. Listeners, that keeps coming up. Again, we're talking about storytelling in the B2B space and the AI overlay, and Liz just gave us two great examples of companies, brands that have done that well. My husband works in construction, so I think I know both of those examples, but I ain't going to say the names on the podcast. Okay, so you know what? I want to make sure I'm not remiss in asking you a few more questions because I'm looking at the time and I appreciate you giving as much of your time as you are to us, Liz, on this podcast.
What is something that you would say to a CMO if you had to answer his question, or maybe even the president of the company, excuse me, you'd be the CMO, who was a little bit hesitant about adopting storytelling, as I mentioned earlier, who's maybe looking at competitors who are not doing it or he doesn't see them doing it, he or she, I should say, because the CEO can be a woman?
And what is it that you would say that we haven't already discussed to help really seal the deal in their eyes, in their minds, in their hearts that storytelling in the B2B space is the way for them to go or else? Because if they don't, what would be the outcome possibly?
Elizabeth Brohan:
Wow. You just hit on a super critical issue, and that issue at the heart of what I'm hearing you asking about is how do we sell into the boss?
Shanita Akintonde:
Correct.
Elizabeth Brohan:
So the boss is another audience. And like you were talking about personas, they have very different wants and needs and drivers. So let's start speaking their language. Let's not go in with soft words like storytelling. Let's go in with data. Let's go back to collecting the data from within the corporation that we know that we need. We need examples from customer service.
We need examples from the website sales. We need examples from the IT people, and we need to quantify that data. And that's what we're going to do. We're going to make a business case for making a better experience for our customers that we believe is going to drive ROI. That's how we're going to talk to the CMO. That's how we're going to talk all the way up to the chairman of the board.
Shanita Akintonde:
Yes. So telling stories or having storytelling in your pocket is not mutually exclusive of strategy. It's not mutually exclusive of understanding that data points are needed. You can use data and stories. I don't think people understand that. And what you're saying is know your audience. So don't go in there and have just some kind of pretty design picture of something. You really have to drive it home and hit those metrics or let them know you can hit metrics by using this as one of your tools. That's an excellent, excellent response.
Elizabeth Brohan:
Absolutely. Because what will resonate with them is that you're solving problems. So there's emotional intelligence that you're going to bake into your presentation to this executive team, but you need to put it in language that they understand and you need to put it in numbers.
Shanita Akintonde:
Amen. Okay. Speaking of numbers, sort of, kind of, what are some of the biggest mistakes that you see B2B marketers make when telling their brand story? Those who have decided to do it, but now what mistakes are they making?
Elizabeth Brohan:
I think it all comes back to two issues, believe it or not. The first one is they haven't defined their goals and objectives thoroughly. The second one is they haven't done the research. So you always have to begin with the end in mind. You need to know what you're striving for. And as we were just talking about, we need to quantify those goals and objectives. Then you can start to figure out what are the strategies that are going to get me there.
And honestly, one of the foundational strategies that I see overlooked because it does require investment is research. We absolutely need to get out in the marketplace and talk more with customers and prospects and bring that research as the foundational elements for the marketing efforts. Those are the two big mistakes I see all the time.
Shanita Akintonde:
Yeah, and those are huge. Those are huge. Those are chasms. And speaking of just closing things out, because you'd want to close a chasm, you wouldn't want to have it expand, Liz, I'm going to ask you this final question, and I know this one is definitely going to be something that's important to you as well. We're going to also now switch gears and talk to those young marketers, someone who's listening who may be stepping into his or her first B2B role. What would you tell them about the power of story, either their own or that of the organization or entity that they may be representing?
Elizabeth Brohan:
There's nothing more exciting to me than mentoring tomorrow's leaders. And many of them haven't given themselves the permission to fail. Because guess what? You will fail. We could do a whole other podcast on all the mistakes I made. Here's what I didn't do that I totally recommend. First of all, when you feel a lack of confidence or you're articulating a doubt in your head, add the word yet. I don't know how to do that yet. I can't do that yet.
That frees you up to do a number of things, starting with ask a bunch of questions. If you're being given an assignment or a project and you don't even know where to start, ask the questions. There are no such things as stupid questions. If you need to know step-by-step, how would you do this? If you're my boss, I need to know how you would do this. Ask a lot of questions. And you don't even have to just ask your boss.
Ask your colleagues. Ask a mentor. Just ask away. The second thing I recommend is do the research. We all have so many great tools at our disposal. I would absolutely ask AI, how would you get started here? What does that process look from your perspective? So just don't be afraid to try to take the doubt out of everything you do and try to use the resources that you have available to be able to do the job to the best of your ability.
Shanita Akintonde:
Ooh, that gave me goosebumps. Yes. Yet behind every sentence and just ask those questions and do the research. Well, you all need to do the research on Liz. Look her up on LinkedIn. I don't think she minds, Liz Brohan. She is an awesome woman, as you heard. Mentoring is near and dear to her heart. She's one of my mentors. We are so connected, and I hope that we connected with you today.
The idea of looking at storytelling, the importance of storytelling in the B2B space, and particularly in the AI era. We've touched on so many points, but that last one that Liz just made really resonated with me, and I hope it resonates with you. Because at the end of the day, the power of story lies in each and every one of your hands, but it starts with each and every one of you.
Just like we seek to do in each and every one of these podcast episodes for Marketing Insights, I'm your host again, Shanita Akintonde. Please reach out to me also on LinkedIn at Professor Shanita Akintande or on Instagram at @_ShanitaSpeaks. Feel free to like, share, and join this podcast family wherever your favorite podcasts are found. So that's Stitcher, iTunes, Google Play, Apple Music, Audible, et cetera. Liz, thank you so much for joining us today. Any parting words that you'd like to say to our listeners before we close out of here?
Elizabeth Brohan:
Well, first of all, it was my pleasure. Honestly, every time I get the chance to talk to you and we get to go on and on about marketing best practices, it could never end. And then the last thing I want to say is that I just had the pleasure of having you on Words of Wisdom from Kick-Ass Women. And yeah, she knocked it out of the park, folks. I hope you'll look into that and take a listen. But I do want to just reach out to all the kick-ass women out there listening to you today that if they reach out to me, I would love to hear their stories because we need to get it out there.
Shanita Akintonde:
Amen. Amen again. Well, mwah! Thank you. Thank you Marketing Maestros and Marketing Insights listeners. You all take care. Thanks, Liz.
Elizabeth Brohan:
Bye, everybody. Thank you.
Shanita Akintonde:
Bye!
