Full Podcast Transcript:
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Class is back in session. Welcome to another special edition of Marketing Insights Podcast. I'm your host, Shanita Baraka Akintonde, professor, author, career coach, storyteller, and president, and chief love officer of ShanitaSpeaks LLC. Today's episode is going to focus on Generation Z. We're going back to school, y'all. We're going to talk about what it means to take brands that appeal to this particular demographic and make them pass the test, and I am thrilled. Make that popcorn please to have two excellent guests here with me today who are not only experts on Gen Z, they have their finger on the pulse of the culture. They can take it and blow your mind. They're going to talk to us about what it means to connect with this group, and again, make them buy your brand.
So to my left and coming up on camera soon is Desmon Walker. Now, Desmon's going to tell you a little bit about himself, but he is a TEDx speaker and co-founder of Narratent, which we are in the auspices of. Now, you all can't see the entire studio, but let me just tell you, it is thebomb.com, and we are here to talk about his expertise, and I'm going to allow him to say a little bit about himself now. Desmon, tell him about you.
Desmon Walker:
Sure. Well, as you shared, I'm Desmon Walker. I'm co-founder and CEO of Narratent Digital Marketing, which we have the pleasure and honor of housing today's conversation within our-
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Such a great area, too.
Desmon Walker:
Thank you. Thank you. This is very special for us because it gives us a chance to put our vision to the test in terms of what this studio is meant to be, which is a storytelling vehicle. And in this case, you all are in the driver's seat as I see it, and I'm just in passenger, just helping to tell the story of marketing insights, and I'm excited to do so. This is what I'm a marketer for. It's why I became a practitioner of the industry, which is to allow for my expertise and my work that I do every day to be an inspiration to someone else or someone that's aspiring to be a marketer. And so, otherwise, excited to get into the conversation.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Excellent. You know, Desmon's being a little modest. He and I met through the American Marketing Association Chicago Chapter, and I can't tell you how much when we initially connected, we just had a conversation, and I was duly impressed with his expertise. Don't let his age belie you because sometimes people, I think, underestimate what I call the next generation of marketers, which many of you listening and seeing in this podcast are what you bring to the table. And so, we're going to talk about that today. We're going to interweave that into our discussion about Gen Z.
Okay, so next up, this young lady doesn't necessarily need an introduction. I don't know why I'm looking at my notes because I know her very well. This is Alyssa Gail Martin. You know anyone with three names? They're already starting out of the box has a lot to offer.
Desmon Walker:
Absolutely.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Thank you.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Alyssa is a former student of mine at Columbia College Chicago, but beyond that, this young lady is an influencer. She has taken off in the social media realm. She's going to talk to us a little bit about that, how she packages things. She was giving me advice before the podcast started on how we going to package this one, so you all will see that.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
That's right.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
But in addition, I want her to talk about not only her expertise in that arena, but how it ties into Generation Z. So please, Alyssa, tell us a little more about you and-
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Oh, wow. Thanks.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
... what you can bring to the table today.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Oh, thanks, Professor. Okay, so I started Frequency Social Media about a year and a half ago. I came from the political realm, but went into the private sector, got viral on TikTok on my own thing, but fell in love with helping other businesses grow, so especially here in Chicago, small businesses. I decided to leave the private sector, leave the other boutique agency and created my own. And here I am with you, get to talk to my fabulous old professor from college.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Yes, yes.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
All things, all good things.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
It's just a love fest if you all can't tell.
Desmon Walker:
Absolutely.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
We are having a good time just to jump start. So let's jump right in and talk about Generation Z. I like to say that, and maybe you all can help for folks who don't know who they are, first, let's start with the definition in you all's own words of who Generation Z is. You said an interesting term to me before we started the podcast about what category you place yourself in because I asked them. I said, "Well, what category are y'all in?" And I said millennial, and you said zillennial for you. Talk a little bit about that when you talk about Generation Z.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Yeah, yeah. So we're born in the '90s, between '91 and '98. We're in this, we understand millennial context, but we also honor Gen Z as well. We get the Gen Z trends or connotations of things. I think that puts us in a middle kind of like the meat in the sandwich here because there's two different generations, but they kind of cut us out because it's either like you're a millennial or a Gen Z-er, and we're really like, "Well, we understand both." So I have to say, being a zillennial is quite... It's a mix of both.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Nice. I like that. That's a new term. That may be another podcast I'd invite you back for. Good. Okay. Desmon, what about you? What do you want to add to how you define Gen Z?
Desmon Walker:
Sure. So similar to Alyssa, I liken our position as being sort of the middle child, as I would call it, where we have, at least speaking for myself, that older soul and that experience of being around long enough to understand the world pre '98-
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Sure. Right.
Desmon Walker:
... or whatever year it falls in, but also have a pivotal point of view on what came after that. So I think the best practical way that it often applies day to day is pre-internet, post-internet. Alyssa was telling me how she has very few, if any, memories of life without the internet. Some of us in this zillennial stage, we do have even just a faint bit of memory, and I think it's powerful to be in a position to see both ends and understanding culturally what makes either side tick as a people.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Absolutely. Oh, I love that. So let's just get right into this because with Generation Z, and this can apply to other demographics, for listeners of old podcasts or should I say previous because they're not old, they're previous podcasts. We talk and I talk a lot about how you slice and dice demographic audiences, how you target different groups, whether they're your primary, your secondary, tertiary.
And I should pause for a moment and say this very important sound bite before I go any further. This podcast is jumpstarting the new season. This is jumpstarting the 2025, 2026 season, and we're doing it with an interview. This is a new format for me. I used to call myself the Oprah podcasting because it was just yours truly talking and sharing my expertise. And now, I have your expertise to talk about this very decisive, discerning demographic. I like to say also that Gen Z not only takes the brands, they sometimes remix them to make them be what it is that is amenable to them, their personalities, their style, the way they live their lives, and they also can cancel them if they ain't meeting, the rubber meeting the road. So what are you all's thoughts about that? What are some things that you think propelled this generation to, I feel, be a little more attuned to what's working for them in terms of how they select their brands versus just taking what's given to them, which marketers in the past have been used to doing?
Alyssa Gail Martin:
So I can add onto that. This reminds me of your class at Columbia talking about knowing your audience and what's key. I say this all the time to even my clients now, I kind of took what I from your classes-
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
That's fine.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
... but Gen Zers, they buy through the DMs, so through TikTok, through Instagram. They buy through when somebody slides in the DMs, or they see something that's relatable to them. So I think a lot of Gen Zers do take the older nostalgia, and they take that, make it their own to make it relatable for today. So they're almost like bridging this gap of making it trendy of the now, but still keeping that euphoria of how it was in perhaps '80s music or even '90s, and they're making it their own.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Yeah, that's great. I'm going to come back to that. It's almost like the best of both worlds, which I think is what you said, what's working from the past from the nostalgic perspective, but also what current things are working for them as well. Desmon, what are your thoughts on that?
Desmon Walker:
My thoughts are that the beautiful part about right now, I think, in terms of Gen Z and where the actual marketing landscape sits is that a wall has kind of been broken down, whereas traditionally, you only had as an audience so much empowerment to dictate what the relationship between yourself and the brand is. And now, brands are in a position where it's a lot more democratized. They're forced to listen
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
They are.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Yeah.
Desmon Walker:
They're forced to pay attention, and they're forced to act or not act according to what Gen Z, if we're using that as an audience, decides.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Yes.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Making it more relatable.
Desmon Walker:
Exactly. Yeah.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Those are excellent points. So let's build on that. The idea of they're being forced to because brands and all the listeners, some of the listeners are actually brands, so I'm talking to two audiences essentially, those who are on the creation side and who are the marketers and those who are the consumers. We're all consumers, too. What are some things you think the marketers need to know so that they don't get pushed up against the wall and then they have to be reactive? Because sometimes things can be done proactively to put yourself in a position where you know your audience, you're listening to your audience, you're even predicting, "Ooh, Mufasa, you're predicting what your audience may even want before they themselves know." So can you either think of any ways in which you can be proactive as a marketer so you don't have to get pushed up against the wall? Desmon, I'll start with you.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Yeah.
Desmon Walker:
I would say listen when you don't have to, so that when you do have to, you're already equipped with insights, you're equipped with the language that someone or a group of folks are already using so that it's less self-serving or it comes across as disingenuous.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
And Gen Zers know that. They know when people are not being genuine.
Desmon Walker:
Yeah, when it's advantageous and that's the agenda.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
It's like a radar. They understand that there's some fakeness going on, and it's like they understand that. But-
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Yeah, let me build on that. That is so true. I think most demographics in general know when you're not being authentic, but I definitely think the radar is higher with Gen Z. So what ways have you seen, what mistakes have you all seen, if any, that come to mind in which a brand tried to present themselves in an authentic way and this can go back and it didn't land? Or maybe it wasn't even about authenticity. Maybe it was just for whatever reason they missed the mark because they were trying to do something or reach an audience, and it just-
Desmon Walker:
Yeah.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
For sure.
Desmon Walker:
I can think of one example at least in the past year that comes to mind. I believe it was Tropicana. They redesigned their orange juice bottles and deployed that they positioned it as this new slick design and somehow it's emotionally going to make a difference in how you consume orange juice. That was more or less the story. When in reality, they reduced the size of their bottles. And initially, if I'm just an everyday person just reaching in the cooler, grabbing orange juice, taking it home, pouring it, drinking, thinking no mind of it, whatever, but once you start kind of looking at the real pieces to it and reading that label and seeing the outsize decrease, it's like, "Wait, did you all truly do this to give me a different experience, or are you just looking to save-
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Save, yeah.
Desmon Walker:
... coins by keeping the price the same and-
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Yeah, like the sneak attack move or something. Yeah.
Desmon Walker:
Yeah, yeah. Bait and switch almost.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Bait and switch. Yeah, that's an excellent one. Let me also add to this. There are some brands, and they spend a lot of monies, right? So they don't just make these decisions happenstance. At least you hope they don't. I'm thinking back old school when Coca-Cola, and this wasn't just targeted to Gen Z. You all know the story where they changed their flavor of their product-
Desmon Walker:
That's right.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Yeah.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
And they had done a lot of research and everything, and then they realized and even the consumers told them, "We like the new taste," except when it officially rolled out and they took a sip, they say, "Oh, no. This ain't Coca-Cola. We want our old Coca-Cola back. And so, sometimes consumers will tell you things or you'll get information from consumers that is not accurate, right?
Desmon Walker:
Correct.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Right.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
You can get it from the source. And sometimes it still turns out that it changed their minds because consumers change their minds. Anything you want to add to that about the ones that are not working or you want to-
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Yeah, I think leaning into culture is what you want to do. And also, you mentioned the focus group, and I think when it comes to social media, since we're talking about the Gen Z language here, I think in order to, instead of getting your focus group, now, social media has all the analytics versus-
Desmon Walker:
That's right.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
... a TV ad didn't necessarily have that.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Sure.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Again, this is free, so again, having the opportunity to post on this and gather that data, but you have to post in order to get the data. So I think what really is important is playing with what works of different, the creative has to be with the data, it has the DNA. This is how I tell my clients. They're like, "This is the DNA here." Creative and data go hand in hand together. And in order to create the data that you have, you got to post. You got to figure out what works and stick with that.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Okay, so let's talk about posting. You're an influencer. How does that work? I mean, if I'm brand XYZ and I'm posting myself to your point you have to post, but I also want other people to post about me. I want influencers to post. I want my consumers to post. What are some ways in which I can get them engaged with me, especially Gen Z, so that they are out there telling my story for me?
Alyssa Gail Martin:
So organic content is kind of what I think we're going down this realm. And again, having to post is figuring out who your audience is. Is it John and Sally who live on Burling Street, or is it somebody who goes to Lincoln Park High School and is involved in basketball? Who is it? Speak to that audience. So I like to say instead of social media, I like to say interest media because it's what they're interested in. So having to create that creative, what you think could work on... Let's say you post a video, and you're speaking to a group of Lincoln Parkers that play basketball, and that creative doesn't do so well. Oh, it only got like 300 views. Okay, maybe you change the text to make it a little bit more authentic to what they're relate, whatever that might be, and then push that out. That could get 1,000 views. So you know that the idea was there and you know that you have your data, it's just creating what the creative side could do to push that forward. Does that make sense?
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
It does. It does. Because when you think about, again, back to, you were saying this too, Desmon, knowing your audience to the point of listening before you need to listen. I love that line. Anything you want to add about posting?
Desmon Walker:
I think just echoing, one, what Alyssa said about this idea of an interest graph right now versus what used to be the premise of social media, which is that social graph. It's understanding that if you start with the base of it being based on the interest, you can build vertically up or down to that. If it's a particular, let's say, think from a lifestyle perspective, a particular situation a consumer is in based on their interests, then you can decide from there. Everyone has the same interest, but you can decide from there, is this an older person, a younger person, a middle-aged person, versus starting with the age and fitting into the traditional criteria of what an audience is.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Yeah, all of that. Yes, that old school. I did this in class with Alyssa. I used to put up a chart, and we'd talk about psychographic and demographics, and we would say age, ethnicity, gender, religion. We'd write all these things down. And not that those aren't still applicable, but what I'm hearing you both say, it's about the interest, which is more on that psychographic side and also looking at what at the end of the day appeals to people because it's fluid. What I want at nine o'clock may not be what I want at eight o'clock, and I may want it at nine o'clock on Monday and Tuesday, but by Thursday, I may want something different.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Yeah.
Desmon Walker:
Exactly. To that point, you used the product of Coca-Cola as an example. When I think about it in this context where Coca-Cola is such a universal product that from morning to dawn to dusk, there can be so many different scenarios that puts that product in someone's life.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Absolutely.
Desmon Walker:
And building out how that brand is positioned based according to those different nuances can make all the difference in whether it resonates with someone or not. In the morning, I may be drinking a bottle of Coca-Cola because it's a substitute for coffee. I'm just drinking a bottle at a desk. I see a hand raised right there. At nighttime, it may be at McDonald's or Burger King. You know what I mean? And I'm eating a late night meal, and it's a fountain drink versus the bottle.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
That could be a video.
Desmon Walker:
That could change the whole video and the story-
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Yeah, that could, really.
Desmon Walker:
... that's attached to it.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
And it does. And so, oh, this is so rich. So listen, I'm a Pepsi drinker by the way, but I raised my hand because we're talking about Coca-Cola-
Desmon Walker:
Pepsi drinker, too.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
... but I like Pepsi. But Coca-Cola is an expert on branding. The personalized Coca-Cola bottles where I can put my name on there, oh, gosh. Very smart.
Desmon Walker:
Yup. That's the thing.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
But let's talk about something else you raised that I think ties into culture as well. As you pointed out, Desmon, I might drink my Coca-Cola for breakfast for my caffeine boost. What brands are discovering now more than ever, I think, is this idea of how people use their products may not be the traditional way in which they thought consumers were using it, and I have two quick examples. There's a dill pickle or Lay's or Jays, Lay's potato chip. I think it's Lay's, forgive me if it's not Lay's. You all know what I'm talking about, the dill potato chip brand?
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Yeah.
Desmon Walker:
Mm-hmm.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Well, I shared this in previous podcasts. As a kid, we would take just plain old plain potato chips and take pickle juice and pour them on the chips.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Oh, wow.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
And we did that. Okay. Now, this may be in the African-American culture, but it was what we did. For years, we did that. So when the Lay's came out with the dill, it wasn't a big deal because I said they took what the culture was doing, and they commoditized it-
Desmon Walker:
They put a product.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
... and made it into a brand. But that's listening and paying attention and understanding what your brand does. Another example is, and this may not be Cheetos because I don't know that there's a movie about Cheetos and I need to watch it, I think a Hispanic janitor gave somebody the recipe for that, but the point is-
Desmon Walker:
I read that story before.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Did you read the story? Okay, then you tell.
Desmon Walker:
I didn't know there was a film about it, but I read it.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
You tell the story because I don't... Just in your own words.
Desmon Walker:
You're putting me on the spot here.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
No, no, you don't have to know it verbatim, but just what you know because I know it's like a special-
Desmon Walker:
The premise of it, as I understand it, is way back in whatever decade, be it '90s or '80s, there was a janitor working within an office space that was housed by the brand at the time that produced Cheetos and-
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Regular Cheetos.
Desmon Walker:
For regular Cheetos, I'm sorry.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
No, no, I'm just saying, so we thought that was Flaming Hot, right?
Desmon Walker:
You know how it is. Yeah. You know how it is as a brand, at some point, a brand gets in a position where they're trying to find a sweet spot between what the bottom line needs to achieve and then what innovation needs to achieve-
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Sure.
Desmon Walker:
... and then the product has to come out of that. And in this case, they were sitting around scratching their heads, brainstorming, sitting in boardrooms, trying to figure out what the next best flavor would be. I believe that janitor kind of just overhearing one way or the other, ear hustling as we call it, went back to the lab and at home came up with whatever kind of way to reprogram a flavor being what turned out to be Hot Cheetos, came back with it to the office like, "Hey, I know this isn't really what my job description reads, but try this out because so far, nothing has hit the mark." And long story short, as I understand it-
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Wow.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Took off.
Desmon Walker:
Yeah, it took off.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
And the idea with that, and that's back to what we're saying with Gen Z and what I'm saying to listeners, never underestimate where the best ideas can come from. Don't think you know what you think is the absolute about a product, good, or service. What is going to connect with consumers may be counterintuitive to what you think it will be. Knowing and understanding the nuances in a culture that may be this own subculture that has been created to make that brand or product useful to that group, which is what we pointed out at the beginning that Gen Z is doing. As I said, they will remix it. They'll remix the brand because they understand how they're going to take a little bit of this, a little bit of that, and they're going to put it together and make it work for them. There's something that marketers can learn from that because the best ideas are often from a janitor who works at a school who says or at their company and says, "Hey, try this out."
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Well, think of the Stanley cup, not the hockey, but the cup and how it became... I mean, it-
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
A phenomenon.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
... became a phenomenon. It wasn't the brand itself. It was literal people on video making it into a fashion icon on TikTok or on Instagram. So they had their Stanley with them, and it became part of their outfit. I think that's also stepping into a culture as well because the fashion world as well, they stepped into that, and it became part of your outfit.
Desmon Walker:
Yep. Yep.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Your look. Yeah.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
And your look. Yeah.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Yes, yes. So we talked about the examples of some of the brands who weren't doing it well with Tropicana. And by the way, did Tropicana come back? How did they fix that? Do you know Desmon or are they just-
Desmon Walker:
I wish I knew. That would be an interesting-
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
But still, Tropicana, if you're listening to this podcast, call us. We can help you because I like Tropicana.
Desmon Walker:
Likewise.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Okay. So do you have any examples of brands who've done it well with Gen Z that you can think of that they have embraced, whether in its entirety as it is or in some way co-opted it and did something else with it so that they can say, "We riding with you," so to speak, Desmon?
Desmon Walker:
So again, Alyssa and I are zillennials, so we can kind of speak-
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Yeah, and that's fine.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Both, yeah.
Desmon Walker:
We can straddle, right?
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Yeah.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Yeah, straddle. That's good.
Desmon Walker:
In the last week, KFC impressed me.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Okay. Talk about it.
Desmon Walker:
So I imagine for some millennials, some Gen Z, they felt the same way, but they rolled back their potato wedge into the menu. If you're familiar with-
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Of course, I know their potatoes.
Desmon Walker:
... vintage KFC, they didn't have fries, they had the wedges.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Right.
Desmon Walker:
And so, in between however many years-
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
So good.
Desmon Walker:
... I'm sure they've gathered their own insights either very intentionally or just it came their way regardless because that's the position the consumer is in now, to let KFC know, "Hey, where are the potato wedges at? What happened? Bring them back."
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Wait. What did they do? What did they substitute with? There was nothing or just mashed potatoes?
Desmon Walker:
Yeah, I believe some locations have fries.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Oh, I see.
Desmon Walker:
Some locations will have no kind of fry or wedge-
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Oh, you got to have a potato. Yeah.
Desmon Walker:
... position at all in the menu.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
That's a cardinal sin. You got to have-
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Taco Bell too because Taco Bell and KFC go hand in hand. I think they're [inaudible 00:24:58]
Desmon Walker:
They're owned by the same company, I believe.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Yeah, they are by the same company.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Pepsi, Pepsi.
Desmon Walker:
Yep.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Yeah. Oh, there you go.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
There we go. I got a Pepsi mention. All right, continue.
Desmon Walker:
But otherwise, what impressed me about this KFC example more recently is that as they rolled out the product back onto the menu, they, on social media, rolled it out as this single picture of a or I should say a picture of a single potato wedge as the visual, as the creative. And within the copy, I mean, it was very simplistic, but it was like if you know, you know. The copy and the caption read-
Alyssa Gail Martin:
If you know, you know?
Desmon Walker:
... "Here, damn." As in if you're of our era, you know depending on what you're giving back, it's like a reluctant return to something that someone has been longing for, and it's just a way to communicate that you get like, "Here, damn. Take this. Take it back."
Alyssa Gail Martin:
It's like if you're hangry.
Desmon Walker:
If you're hangry, yeah. So I thought that that was a witty way to speak the same language.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Yeah.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Yeah. KFC is actually pretty ingenious. I don't remember the exact tag, but I think during the pandemic or sometime, they ran out of chicken, and they had a billboard-
Desmon Walker:
I remember that.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
... that had the letters KFC, but it stood for something about not having the chicken. We're going to have to look that up, and I'll have to bring that to another podcast. But the idea was KFC, whoever, their creatives are pretty creative in that way.
Desmon Walker:
Yeah, I remember that.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
That's a great example. Yes, yes. Would-
Alyssa Gail Martin:
That's funny you say that. Talking about running out of stuff, you know with the whole eggs people, it's so expensive and such. Well, actually, the context of the market of vegan eggs came up and plant-based came up. I'm plant-based, and it was kind of interesting to see the different brands in the plant-based world go like, "Oh, wow. People are trying us more because eggs are expensive, and it tastes the same just in a plant... You wouldn't taste the difference, really." So that's where I see kind stepping into that culture as well because they're like, "Oh, you don't have eggs? Well, we got plant-based eggs," and it worked. It worked.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Yeah, because I think necessity forces people to try things as they say necessity is a mother of invention, but it also, it makes you try things, but sometimes you're pleasantly surprised.
Desmon Walker:
Can you say that again?
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Necessity is the mother of invention.
Desmon Walker:
Okay. That's a bar. That's a bar.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Okay. All right. Nice.
Desmon Walker:
I like that. I like that.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Nice.
Desmon Walker:
Taking notes.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
I want you all to tell me also in your own personal experiences, if you don't mind, as zillennials, as you're straddling the bar as you said, what are some brands that just appeal to you personally because of their usefulness and/or the fact that they may or may not have come out of a situation where you may have been pleasantly surprised when you discovered it or it's just a nostalgic thing because it's a tried and true? Maybe your family always used this brand, so you came along and you used it for that reason. Either side of that coin, you discovered it on your own-
Desmon Walker:
That is a big one.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
... or it's just something that traditionally, and as you're thinking, I'll help you, give you a little time there, I used to say in my classes that sometimes I know, especially when you go away to college, for example, for many students, that's the first time or many people, that's the first time you've lived on your own. And so, that first semester, if you have to go out and buy things like detergent to wash your clothes or products to clean your dorm room, you're going to most likely buy the same brands that mom bought because that's what you-
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Method's for me.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
You know that. You don't even think, "Maybe there's some option," or maybe if Mom used Tide, you're going to buy Tide. You don't think, "Let me try this other brand," because you go on the nostalgia or the familiarity of what you grew up with. And then, at some point, for whatever reason, maybe it's cost, maybe it's usefulness, you get new information, then you may pivot or change. So I'm not certain if, again, the two of you have examples of brands because your family used it, and it can be toothpaste versus just some brands that stood out to you because you discovered them on your own. Yeah.
Desmon Walker:
Good question.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Well, the cleaning brand would be Method for me because it's a clean... I mean, you're not getting all these chemicals. It's made from plants.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Oh, I'm not familiar with Method. Okay.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Yeah, and it's found at Target now. I mean, it's really a great brand, and it cleans very well. They have for granite countertops and floors, and it all has these different... It's fun poppy colors, and also, you're not using... My mom would use Clorox all the time, but now, I think as zillennials, we're kind of noticing, "Oh, wow. This isn't really us anymore. The Clorox is... We're noticing that, "Oh, it's not very good for our system, and we want to stay more healthy." So I think this is where Method stepped in and was like, "Okay, I can clean just as good as that, if not better, and I'm also not harmful to your body."
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Yeah, so that is one of the things, I think, I want to reiterate about Gen Z and zillennials about when I said the remix portion. You have brands like Method who will say, "We know you know Clorox," because everybody in my family use Clorox, and you just be choking and gagging. I can't. I'm not using Clorox. I got Clorox at home because again, my mom and grandmom, that's what they had. But to your point, you want the benefit without some of the other side effects that may affect certain populations. So when you have a brand like a Method that recognizes that, they'll come forward and say, "Okay, we got this category who's going to stay true in blue to Clorox," like me, and then you have those who will say, "You know what? I'm going to not harm myself in certain ways or maybe for allergic reactions or whatever and use Method." That's an excellent point. So let me also add to that by saying when you think about it, packaging, because you said they had beautiful colors-
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Pretty colors, yeah.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
I am a sucker for packaging. Packaging... I'm serious. I buy books because of packaging. That's why my new book, The Front Porch Leader: Great Grand's Recipe for Success-
Desmon Walker:
There it is.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Name drop.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
... has a great cover. See, I just wove that in. Yeah, so packaging. Talk to me about packaging. Desmon, are there any products that you think get it right in terms of their packaging or just in terms of maybe being something that made you take notice when you look at the packaging?
Desmon Walker:
Absolutely. Definitely the latter. When it comes to attention grabbing, what comes to mind is this new dynamic that I've heard coined, chaos packaging, I believe. So if you think about a brand like Liquid Death as an example, if you take it for just face value as you're going through the aisle looking with the naked eye at a product, you're thinking beer can, when in reality, they've taken what would traditionally be a beer can look and put water into it.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
I'm so glad you said that. Pause for a second. I don't know where I was. It was a concert.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Lollapalooza?
Desmon Walker:
Probably a festival. Yep.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Somebody sending me the Liquid Death. I said, "What? Are you trying to kill me?"
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Lollapalooza here in Chicago teamed up with Liquid Death, and it's funny. I was one of those carrying Liquid Death with me onto the train, and I had an extra water, and somebody was like, "Oh, I'd love to join you," but really, I was like, "Oh, it's water." I was like, "Oh, no."
Desmon Walker:
It's good.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
They're like, "Really? That looks like beer."
Desmon Walker:
[inaudible 00:32:40] Yep, yep. And that's a use case.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Yes.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
So continue. So you're saying because of that-
Desmon Walker:
Because of that, I believe it catches attention for the right reasons, especially for something as commoditized as water.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Sure.
Desmon Walker:
You need that extra bit of creativity to catch someone's eye when otherwise, it would've just blended in.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Absolutely.
Desmon Walker:
You know what I mean?
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Absolutely.
Desmon Walker:
So yeah.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
That's great.
Desmon Walker:
That's something to pay attention to. You know what else is something I would say-
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
What else?
Desmon Walker:
... is important to pay attention to and when I think about brands? McGraw Hill.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Yeah.
Desmon Walker:
I mean this in the most genuine way possible, I think for anyone that may be a zillenial that remembers the '90s being that last kind of decade where a traditional textbook was the format to learn in, that's what McGraw Hill traditionally comes to mind as-
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Sure.
Desmon Walker:
... but I think something even as what seems like normal now as this podcast and how we're having this conversation powered by the same brand-
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Absolutely.
Desmon Walker:
... speaks to their intention to create a different format to learning that their brand can still be alongside, so I don't want us to lose sight of that either.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Yeah, that's an excellent point.
Desmon Walker:
I know that was a probably nerdy example.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
No. No, no. No, no.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
No, that's great. Yeah.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
That's very true. This is the seventh year of this podcast. And when we started it, the inaugural podcast that I did, I came to this because I, as a professor, McGraw Hill textbooks, I used their textbooks in my class, in your class, Alyssa.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Yeah.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
So because of that relationship I had built over the years with them, when they announced they were going to move to this platform, I was one of the first to raise my hand and say, "I'll do it." I'm the only one who has stuck with it during that duration-
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Wow.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
... for that long period of time. So thank you for bringing that up, Desmon.
Desmon Walker:
Absolutely.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
That's an important point. Yeah.
Desmon Walker:
Respectfully, but I'll take this all day over a classroom when it comes to learning, which is what I feel like this conversation is.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Yes.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
And tell me why because... Expand on that. Why would you do that?
Desmon Walker:
Yeah, it's a good question. I think the way we're able to sit here and kind of talk through our own real world lived examples as we apply it to our subject matter expertise is one that can make all the difference in how the subject matter actually sticks, whether it's examples we've all observed or it's taking maybe something we didn't observe, but I'm learning through YouTube, your own lens by something you've seen out in the space. So it blends a nice sweet spot between academia, I believe, and then real world practice.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
It also feels like a living room in here.
Desmon Walker:
That too. Yeah, it's comfortable.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
You know, it's [inaudible 00:35:11]
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
This space is so great, you all. I'm just going to come here and just camp out.
Desmon Walker:
Anytime.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
I'm just going to do all these podcasts. It's wonderful. Narratent is where we are.
Desmon Walker:
Anytime.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
So we're going to wrap this up soon. I just want to ask you all a couple more questions. We're just talking and having a conversation. We've gone off script, y'all, because I had a list of questions I sent them, and we ain't going through those questions. So I love you all both for you're able to be so extemporaneous in the sense of flowing with it, but you're experts at what you do, so that's what we do. As marketers, this is something that is in our DNA, and that's what I like to tell people. When you live, breathe, and eat it like we do, we can talk about so many aspects of this, and limited time is really challenging.
I want you both to just elaborate for me, if you will, on what you think are some takeaways from marketers who are listening to this podcast. We talked a little bit about listening. We talked about them needing to understand their audience. We've talked about recognizing that Gen Z is going to be a little bit different, what it means to post on social media, what it means to be ahead in terms of things like packaging. But is there anything else or else's that you want them to know or take away that will help them be better at what they do to get that better report card with Gen Z, so that they don't get canceled, that they get promoted?
Alyssa Gail Martin:
I would like to say... I'm going to-
Desmon Walker:
Go ahead.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
I would like to say post as much as possible because at the end of the day, these platforms are free, and I want to just say that in order to know who your audience is or get the data, you have to post. I'd have to say posting every day on Instagram is key. TikTok, a little bit more. You're going to hate me.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Okay, so let me pause you, Alyssa, for a second. Posting on Instagram what though? So what am I posting? Combination of graphics and text or video?
Alyssa Gail Martin:
I would stick with reels.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Okay.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Just video context is kind of where it is the now. Carousels do still work. Carousels, there are pictures or graphic, infographics that is valuable to the audience. But I would say stick with video if you can, throw in a couple carousels that are very valuable to the audience and informative that you want to stick with. That would be posting every day on Instagram and Facebook, TikTok. I know a lot of people are going to be like, "Oh, that's too much." Well, it's free at the end of the day. I would say posting at least three times a day on TikTok and then LinkedIn every day. If you can, LinkedIn is kind of becoming, think of Facebook back in 2017 and of what it is now, and I'd have to say LinkedIn is something to really step up on. YouTube Shorts, they implemented that.
At the end of the day, okay, Instagram wants to be like TikTok, and TikTok's not worried about Instagram. They're like hair flip. Nope, we want to be like YouTube. Actually, TikTok's now becoming like, "Okay, not just the YouTube, I want to be the Pinterest, and I want to be the Google." So now, you're seeing this zillennials and Gen Zers coming in looking things up via TikTok versus Google. I literally look up, "Okay, how do I make this soup, I don't know, a broccoli cheddar soup," and I go directly to TikTok.
Desmon Walker:
Yep. That's fascinating.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
That is so interesting. So how does ChatGPT fit into this? Is that a different world?
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Yeah, ChatGPT is a part of this. I have to say it's up there. ChatGPT is now becoming our best friends and kind of our therapist in a way. So there's now this option where you can have the video on and talk to ChatGPT, and you can integrate your channel to be like, "Okay, this is my therapy channel, and this is what I do," and they'll talk back or using another channel specifically for a client or your content for your social media and just it learns. Think of it as your thinking partner and then moving it on from there and bringing it to the platforms, if that makes sense.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
You and I going to have a whole nother conversation after this podcast because that's so rich. But yeah, I like that. ChatGPT is the therapist and the hair toss for TikTok. Okay, Desmon, what do you want to add to this? I forgot what I asked. What's the question was? Do you remember the question?
Desmon Walker:
I forgot too, so to address the most recent thing-
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Right, let's just go with the most recent.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
We can go dive into that, too.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Right.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Yeah.
Desmon Walker:
Look at AI as a whole, I would say, as a way to harness what I would call like an intern, but with a PhD, meaning the willingness, the curiosity, the work ethic, but also at your disposal where there is no ceiling on how it adds value. You know what I mean? But beyond that, I would say, I think it started with your advice about posting. Your immediate response was post what? Being super strategic from the onset in a way that your strategy can be as robust and wide and complex as it needs to be, but also making it as simple as well as it needs to be. At Narratent, one of the frameworks we use within our strategy capability is content pillars, meaning categories that you kind of decide your brand fits into so that you don't just wake up making it up on the go, right-
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Yes, on the fly. Right.
Desmon Walker:
... and you're not just winging it.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
You have a content calendar.
Desmon Walker:
You have a calendar. Exactly. So you have some sense of a framework of the what, as far as pillars go, but then the when in terms of a calendar. Yep.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
In observing, just going on social media and just without being the audience, be the-
Desmon Walker:
Consumer.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
... consume the content and figure out, "Okay, that trend is cool. What if I take that, but I make it my own and I make it look like this?" And having that, being that creative, it's almost like you have to be the writer, the producer, the videographer, all in one. It sounds like a lot, but it gives more leverages to smaller brands even.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Absolutely.
Desmon Walker:
And the tools are there now too, most importantly, whereas before, that would've been very intimidating to take on all pieces that bring that together. But now, you can-
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Now, you-
Desmon Walker:
... have the camera. You can have the script. You can have the app that edits the footage afterward to bring it together.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Yeah, it gives you control over your content in a different way, especially if you're a smaller brand, and it also lets you pivot, right? Because as you're saying, you can put on your hat and watch it and see what's working, pay attention, look, and then you can shift. You go, "Okay, this worked really well. This is not working as well." And then, you can change. You can almost do it pretty quickly. You don't have to wait a long time.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
And to add on that-
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
I see you, Alyssa. I see you, girl. I see you. Go ahead.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
And to add on that, let's say you have your strategy, like you said, where we're posting this amount, and you'll see three months from now, you see that one video got 10,000 views while another got only 300 views. Okay. Well, you know that it works organically, that 10,000 view.
Desmon Walker:
Yep. [inaudible 00:43:03]
Alyssa Gail Martin:
I can take that 10,000-view video, put that as an ad, put some money into it, put 500 bucks into it because that's how typically Meta-
Desmon Walker:
It's proven.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Yeah, Meta typically starts at 500 for ads. That's still a lot cheaper than a TV ad-
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Sure.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
... a Hulu ad or a newspaper ad, radio. You take that because you know it works organically, kind of like the focus group that we were talking about earlier. So you're seeing that data. Okay, take that 10K view, put $500 into it into Instagram stories, and it'll pop up, and you're going to get more views because you know it works organically.
Desmon Walker:
And what Alyssa is describing too, I would say, is aside from the economical difference between that format and what traditionally a traditional TV commercial would be is also the fact that you have so many different ways to make creative the variable and test it to know what works or works as she's describing it. Whereas back in the day, you put whatever your budget is all into that one piece of creative, that same budget today can make 10 different types. You know what I mean?
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Yeah.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Yes, yes, yes, yes. And I think too, and you all tell me what you think, that Gen Z are on both sides of the fence. They are creating, and they also are consuming, and this is probably the most involvement in that way, I think, we've seen in quite a while, if ever from a participatory. We used to be passive consumers of what was given to us. But again, now, we can take it and also-
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Interest media. Interest media.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Yeah, interest media.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
Yeah.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Okay, so let me wrap this up. This has been so fun. I hope you all had fun.
Desmon Walker:
This was fun.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
I had fun. How do they get in touch with you? So Desmon, tell people how do they get in touch with you?
Desmon Walker:
Sure.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
How do they learn about Narratent? Tell them please.
Desmon Walker:
I mean, so if you have that much interest in myself, you can reach out directly. My email is desmon@narratent.com.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
desmon@narratent.com.
Desmon Walker:
desmon@narratent.com, N-A-R-R-A-T-E-N-T.com.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Good.
Desmon Walker:
Otherwise, if you may be an interested party in our agency as a client, perhaps we can have that conversation. If you reach out to support@narratent.com or find us at narratent.com as a whole if you're just at the informational search point right now. On LinkedIn, Instagram @desmonwalker there as well, so you can find... I haven't put as much into LinkedIn more recently as I know that I need to, so it's kind of like the mechanic that needs to-
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Push forward?
Desmon Walker:
... maintain his own... Yeah, push forward his own vehicle.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
That other fish you're frying. And we're here in the windy city of Chicago, by the way, but you all are... We have a global audience. I just wanted to let them know that.
Desmon Walker:
Absolutely.
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Alyssa, what about you? Tell folks how they can reach you.
Alyssa Gail Martin:
So you can reach me on Instagram Frequency Social Media, so @frequencysocialmedia or frequencysocialmedia.com, or I have my own content as well, very separate from Frequency. So I do more of the influencer side, and I go by Aloha Alyssa Gail, and that is-
Shanita Baraka Akintonde:
Aloha Alyssa Gail, I know that one. Yes. Yes. So this has been another episode of Marketing Insights. This was Gen Z, going back to school, back to brand school. I'm Shanita Akintonde, again, the host of this wonderful podcast. We are kicking off this year. We have kicked it off with my two esteemed guests, Desmon Walker, Alyssa Gail Martin. I'm Shanita Akintonde. You can find me on LinkedIn at Professor Shanita Akintonde, on Twitter @_ShanitaSpeaks and other social media platforms. It has been a sincere honor and privilege to interview these two to talk about this important topic, and keep in mind, until next time, which will be our even better time. Bye-bye.
